Comments on: Prop 8 #1: A Material or Moral Defeat? http://kenyonfarrow.com/2008/11/17/prop-8-a-material-or-moral-defeat/ Sat, 04 Feb 2012 18:08:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Bandung 1955 http://kenyonfarrow.com/2008/11/17/prop-8-a-material-or-moral-defeat/#comment-1380 Bandung 1955 Sun, 19 Sep 2010 06:21:25 +0000 http://kenyonfarrow.wordpress.com/?p=575#comment-1380 [...] lesbian, bisexual, and transgender folks, many of them non-white and non-middle class, who promote a queer politic that challenges the heternormative desires of mainstream movements, including that pushed by some LGBT organizations and their purported “allies” within the [...] [...] lesbian, bisexual, and transgender folks, many of them non-white and non-middle class, who promote a queer politic that challenges the heternormative desires of mainstream movements, including that pushed by some LGBT organizations and their purported “allies” within the [...]

]]> By: Devin http://kenyonfarrow.com/2008/11/17/prop-8-a-material-or-moral-defeat/#comment-1379 Devin Sun, 14 Dec 2008 00:50:51 +0000 http://kenyonfarrow.wordpress.com/?p=575#comment-1379 What you have highlighted is interesting. To be fair, I think this is a moral battle with material casualties. Those "casualties" are people's minds. Whether or not the "Pro-Family"/"Anti-gay" crowd has actually won anything is irrelevant. The fact that so many people could come forward in protest against gay marriage, and gays, is troubling. This action is a type of barometer for "opinion", if you will. It's telling us public opinion of an entire group of people is poor. It's telling us that the public has invalidated, and belittled, the lives of so many Americans. What you have highlighted is interesting. To be fair, I think this is a moral battle with material casualties. Those “casualties” are people’s minds.

Whether or not the “Pro-Family”/”Anti-gay” crowd has actually won anything is irrelevant. The fact that so many people could come forward in protest against gay marriage, and gays, is troubling. This action is a type of barometer for “opinion”, if you will. It’s telling us public opinion of an entire group of people is poor. It’s telling us that the public has invalidated, and belittled, the lives of so many Americans.

]]> By: Jason Tompkins http://kenyonfarrow.com/2008/11/17/prop-8-a-material-or-moral-defeat/#comment-1378 Jason Tompkins Tue, 25 Nov 2008 02:36:31 +0000 http://kenyonfarrow.wordpress.com/?p=575#comment-1378 Yes Congrats, Kenyon on the OUT 100 recognition. I can't tell you how much I have thirsted for intelligent, well thought out dialogue such as what you have provided. I've had issues with the "marriage equality" scene since it was hot in '04, and basically there's just a lot of leadership that operates in a very reactionary way, and a lot of their tactics just fall flat. Yes Congrats, Kenyon on the OUT 100 recognition.

I can’t tell you how much I have thirsted for intelligent, well thought out dialogue such as what you have provided. I’ve had issues with the “marriage equality” scene since it was hot in ’04, and basically there’s just a lot of leadership that operates in a very reactionary way, and a lot of their tactics just fall flat.

]]> By: Maxwell http://kenyonfarrow.com/2008/11/17/prop-8-a-material-or-moral-defeat/#comment-1377 Maxwell Thu, 20 Nov 2008 03:58:19 +0000 http://kenyonfarrow.wordpress.com/?p=575#comment-1377 T.Evans - i think your point about hospital visitations and practical applications is a good one. i'm not sure about fringe perks, but i'm thinking that state (and voter) support for gay marriage could give local school districts more leverage when including discussions of sexual orientation in their sex ed lessons (just what the Right feared). that sort of thing has played out in MA too, though i also think there are plenty of other ways to accomplish these things. but in thinking about these as "civil rights" it just highlights for me all the perhaps more critical rights that queers are not afforded by gay marriage; like the right to apply for and keep your job regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity/expression or the right to be free from violence because of what you look like. T.Evans – i think your point about hospital visitations and practical applications is a good one. i’m not sure about fringe perks, but i’m thinking that state (and voter) support for gay marriage could give local school districts more leverage when including discussions of sexual orientation in their sex ed lessons (just what the Right feared). that sort of thing has played out in MA too, though i also think there are plenty of other ways to accomplish these things.

but in thinking about these as “civil rights” it just highlights for me all the perhaps more critical rights that queers are not afforded by gay marriage; like the right to apply for and keep your job regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity/expression or the right to be free from violence because of what you look like.

]]> By: Donald Andrew Agarrat http://kenyonfarrow.com/2008/11/17/prop-8-a-material-or-moral-defeat/#comment-1376 Donald Andrew Agarrat Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:00:54 +0000 http://kenyonfarrow.wordpress.com/?p=575#comment-1376 Frankly, hearing white gay people respond to this issue just reminds me how white they are (or want to be). Yes, this is an equality issue, but a whole bunch of us are being silent (or just blatantly dishonest) about the role that class plays in marriage. And if I hear one more gay person question their support for Barack Obama (as if there was no other reason to vote for him and/or they were doing someone else a favor) in one breath and in the next breath claim that "Gay is the new Black." because of this ... honey, it's really not going to be cute. At all. Frankly, hearing white gay people respond to this issue just reminds me how white they are (or want to be). Yes, this is an equality issue, but a whole bunch of us are being silent (or just blatantly dishonest) about the role that class plays in marriage.

And if I hear one more gay person question their support for Barack Obama (as if there was no other reason to vote for him and/or they were doing someone else a favor) in one breath and in the next breath claim that “Gay is the new Black.” because of this … honey, it’s really not going to be cute. At all.

]]> By: T. Evans http://kenyonfarrow.com/2008/11/17/prop-8-a-material-or-moral-defeat/#comment-1375 T. Evans Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:05:23 +0000 http://kenyonfarrow.wordpress.com/?p=575#comment-1375 Couple of areas that may reveal an inconvenient distinction between the semantics of "married spouses" and "domestic partner" probably involve practical application... I can see a gay person trying to visit their mate in the hospital, or possibly needing to make a medical decision on their behalf, being given the damn run-around by some ignorant, homo-intolerant desk-jockey because they are "not legally married," and hospital policy dictates that "only family members" are eligible to engage such action. It won't matter much, at the time, that legally said hospital official may be wrong. Just think of the inconvenience, potentially critical waste of time, and the friggin' insult to the distressed loved one that would occur. Who wants to put up with such nonsense?... And why should they have to? Also, think of all the little fringe perks given out to "married" people from businesses, organizations, private clubs, etc... Who wants to engage and wade through all the so very unnecessary legal wrangling and BS to avail themselves of such services when if the right thing was done from jumpstreet -- the legal recognition of gay marriage -- none of all this time-consuming, finance-draining, personally irritating, legal nonsense would need to happen. This is what makes the semantics game so relevant with this issue. Couple of areas that may reveal an inconvenient distinction between the semantics of “married spouses” and “domestic partner” probably involve practical application… I can see a gay person trying to visit their mate in the hospital, or possibly needing to make a medical decision on their behalf, being given the damn run-around by some ignorant, homo-intolerant desk-jockey because they are “not legally married,” and hospital policy dictates that “only family members” are eligible to engage such action.

It won’t matter much, at the time, that legally said hospital official may be wrong. Just think of the inconvenience, potentially critical waste of time, and the friggin’ insult to the distressed loved one that would occur. Who wants to put up with such nonsense?… And why should they have to?

Also, think of all the little fringe perks given out to “married” people from businesses, organizations, private clubs, etc… Who wants to engage and wade through all the so very unnecessary legal wrangling and BS to avail themselves of such services when if the right thing was done from jumpstreet — the legal recognition of gay marriage — none of all this time-consuming, finance-draining, personally irritating, legal nonsense would need to happen.

This is what makes the semantics game so relevant with this issue.

]]> By: Kenyon Farrow http://kenyonfarrow.com/2008/11/17/prop-8-a-material-or-moral-defeat/#comment-1374 Kenyon Farrow Tue, 18 Nov 2008 17:46:36 +0000 http://kenyonfarrow.wordpress.com/?p=575#comment-1374 Thanks Ben! Thanks Ben!

]]> By: Ben http://kenyonfarrow.com/2008/11/17/prop-8-a-material-or-moral-defeat/#comment-1373 Ben Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:57:51 +0000 http://kenyonfarrow.wordpress.com/?p=575#comment-1373 Congrats on being in Out's 100! Congrats on being in Out’s 100!

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